This may not interest non-Christian posters, and I'm sorry if that's the case, but you are welcome to discuss as well, and share your opinions. For the debate itself, I ask that all claims on the issue be supported by Biblical references. Posting the verse, reference, and translation used, will help us all to stay on the same page. If you want to reference other sources, be sure to add the links for those, as well. And, this being my virtual living room, I do expect some decency in behavior. You can be serious in your points, you can joke around, you can disagree, and debate. Try, as much as possible, to avoid attacking the poster, though, and focus on the issue, instead. And, no, I don't consider calling out bad behavior to be an attack, so if you think someone is behaving badly, addressing that is alright. But try to be nice.
Alright, now to the issue at hand. The whole subject is up for debate because of a passage in the Bible, specifically, 1 Timothy 2:9-15. Here is the entire chapter, which isn't that long:
1 Timothy Chapter 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 Timothy King James Version (KJV)
I tend to post from the King James Version, so my links for verses will be to an online KJV source.
This passage is believed by many to mean that women should not hold leadership positions in churches, as pastors, or teaching men, as that would place them in authority over the men. This doesn't mean women can't be part of a church service, or cannot share their beliefs, by any means. This simply addresses the teaching/preaching in the church, the leadership of said church, etc. There are some who want to claim this isn't true, and that women can be pastors, lead classes of men, and so forth, but there is no solid Biblical support for that claim. While researching this since the debate began here, I came across an article that attempted to explain why the traditional interpretations of this passage were incorrect, and which could be a source for those making the claims elsewhere. I have not, at the time of this writing, seen those specific debates, nor any sources used, but I'd guess the arguments toward women preaching and teaching would be similar to those in that article. I will share the link for that, for reference, though I need to state right now that I believe they are mistaken.
5 Reasons to Stop Using 1 Timothy 2:12 Against Women
It should be noted that this article is posted to a website whose purpose is to defend the idea of women pastors and the like. They state:
We provide a multi-author platform for those exploring and committed to the inclusion of women in leadership in the Christian church and for mutuality in marriage. This is sometimes called the biblical egalitarian position.
We believe that when interpreted correctly, the Bible teaches that both men and women are called to serve at all levels of the Church, and that leadership should be based primarily on gifting and not on gender.
They also claim:
The Junia Project is named for Junia, a woman apostle in the early church (see Romans 16:7). Her ministry in partnership with Andronicus and Paul reminds us that God’s intention is for men and women to partner together as equals in the home, the church, and the community.
This is not accurate, however. There is nothing whatsoever in Romans 16 to indicate that Junia was an apostle. She is listed among other greetings, as someone respected, but never stated to be an apostle, and assuming such, with literally no mention of her elsewhere int he Bible, is adding to the Word of God, which we are told specifically we should not do. Instead, we should look for the most reasonable explanation, and trust in what God's Word tells us elsewhere, as in 1 Timothy, instead of disregarding that passage because some find it uncomfortable. Likewise, that passage should not be used to demand that women never share their faith, or speak at any time in a church setting. There are times for women to be heard, just not for preaching, or teaching men. Women can join in praise, can teach other women and children, and even share prophecy, if so gifted, or other gifts as they have been given, to the benefit of all in the church. I located a pretty good article on this issue, which breaks it down quite well:
Phoebe, Prisca and Junia: Three Women in the Eye of the Evangelical Storm
In Romans 16 the Apostle Paul mentions three women who have been recently become the subject of a great deal of conversation and controversy in the evangelical church.
Who are these women?
What does Paul say about them?
What impact should these statements have on our understanding of gender and ministry?
Phoebe: A Servant (Deacon?) Of The Church In Cenchreae
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well. (Romans 16:1–2 ESV)Church historians have long believed that Phoebe was the person who delivered Paul’s letter to the Romans. She is mentioned as “a servant of the church at Cenchreae”. Cenchreae was a port city near Corinth where Paul was located while writing Romans. It seems that she was a wealthy woman and that she had a well established reputation for generous service among the saints.
It is clear from Paul’s mention of her in Romans 16:1 that Phoebe had some recognized standing within the church; but what was her role specifically? How you answer that question, in large part, depends on which English translation you are using. The 2011 NIV has Paul saying: “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae” (Romans 16:1 NIV11-GK).
The ESV renders the same verse: “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae” (Romans 16:1 ESV).
The controversy has to do with the correction translation of the Greek word diakonos. The word technically does mean “servant”, but in the course of church history it came to refer to the office of “deacon”. In what sense then should it be understood here? Thomas Schreiner contends that:
it is likely that she held the office of deacon… for this is the only occasion in which the term diakonos is linked with a particular local church. [1]He goes on, however, to remind his readers that they must be cautious about reading modern notions of the deaconate back into a first century text. Leon Morris, a convictional egalitarian [2], offers similar counsel:
the social conditions of the time were such that there must have been the need for feminine church workers to assist in such matters as the baptism of women or anything that meant contact with women’s quarters in homes. The form of expression here makes it more likely that an official is meant than the more general term “servant”, though in view of the wide use of the term for the general concept of service this is far from being proved. [3]It seems reasonable then to suggest that Phoebe was credited as some sort of recognized officer of the church in Cenchreae. This office was likely focused on ministry to women and may have extended to the care of orphans, widows and the sick.
Prisca: My Fellow Worker In Christ Jesus
Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks but all the churches of the Gentiles give thanks as well. Greet also the church in their house. (Romans 16:3–5 ESV)Our appreciation of Prisca, or Priscilla as she is known in Acts, is greatly aided by the additional narrative that is supplied in Luke’s Acts Of The Apostles. In Acts 18 for example we are told:
After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them, and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade. (Acts 18:1–3 ESV)Later on in the same chapter, Luke tells us that she and her husband had a positive influence on Apollos, who later became a well known preacher in the church.
He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. (Acts 18:26 ESV)The fact that Paul mentions Prisca first in Romans 16, before her husband, has been suggested by some to mean that she was more knowledgeable than her husband. Thomas Schreiner notes:
This hypothesis may be true, although it is impossible to verify it. [4]Leon Morris thinks it just as likely that it suggests she was of more noble birth than her husband.
What can be said for sure is that she worked alongside her husband in planting churches with the Apostle Paul, sometimes hosting those churches in their home. Further, it appears she had a very firm grasp of the Gospel and partnered with her husband in mentoring new believers.
Junia: Well Known To/In/Among The Apostles
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me. (Romans 16:7 ESV)The debate about Junia, mentioned along with her husband Andronicus, has to do with the phrase “they are well known to the apostles”. The phrase could also be translated “they are well known (or outstanding) among the apostles” and is translated as such by the 2011 NIV: “They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was” (Romans 16:7 NIV11-GK).
The Greek construction has the preposition en plus the dative which generally has the meaning “in, on or among”. Thus an equally sound argument can be made that Andronicus and Junia were well known in the circle of the Apostles (the sense of the ESV) or that they were well known as being among the circle of the Apostles (the sense of the NIV).
When a word or a sentence legitimately could be translated in a variety of ways, scholars generally appeal to the wider context to inform them as to the author’s original intent. Unfortunately, in this case, there is no wider context. The names are thrown out in a laundry list of greetings and salutations. There is no accompanying narrative, as in the case of Priscilla, that could help us make sense of this ambiguous phrase. Andronicus and Junia are recognized and greeted by Paul, and then they are never mentioned in Scripture again.
Therefore, unless you are attempting to buttress an otherwise indefensible argument, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of theological or ecclesiological utility to this citation. All that can be said for sure is that Junia was well known and well respected by the Apostle Paul and that she had become a Christian before him. Saying anything else puts you rather far out on a rather thin limb, indeed.
Celebration, Commendation And Caution
As our culture begins to explore and redefine traditional notions of sexuality and gender, the focus on these women and their stories is likely to increase exponentially. Those holding to a more traditional understanding of gender must be careful not to diminish or under represent the significance of these women or their contribution to the Christian story. At the same time, those embracing the new understanding of gender must not ask these texts to bear more theological freight than they can reasonably carry.
With that in mind, I offer the following celebrations, commendations and cautions.
Celebrations:
The church should celebrate its glorious history with respect to the elevation and protection of women. Historian Rodney Stark – who has described himself as “incapable of belief” and yet who writes very positively about the early Christian church says:
Women were especially drawn to Christianity because if offered them a life that was so greatly superior to the life they otherwise would have led. [5]Jesus welcomed women into his inner circle. He encouraged them to learn, he spoke to them directly and he insisted that they be treated kindly and with respect. Women played key roles in the planting of churches and the expansion of the Kingdom of God throughout the Roman world.
Based on the texts studied above, we can safely add that women held office in the church, they hosted churches in their homes, they funded churches out of their private resources, they ministered to women, widows, the sick and the young; they enjoyed the respect of the Apostles and they were involved in the mentoring of new believers.
This can and should be remembered and celebrated by God’s people.
Commendations:
Based on these texts, a strong argument can and should be made for the practice of planting churches as husband and wife. If a church is “the household of faith”, then it makes sense to have male and female leaders from the planting stage onwards. No credible argument could be made from the Scriptures against this basic assertion.
Furthermore, it should be obvious from these texts and other texts like Proverbs 31 that a woman can be active and successful in the world of business. Women have made and can continue to make an important contribution to the Great Commission as wealthy benefactors. Successful women funded the ministry of Jesus, they funded churches and they funded the missionary work of the Apostle Paul. Women who feel so led and inclined today should be encouraged to follow the examples of Lydia, Phoebe and Prisca in using their businesses to further the Kingdom of God.
Cautions:
None of these texts appears to contribute meaningfully to the current debate about whether or not women should serve as pastors or elders in the church. None of these texts says anything about a woman preaching the sermon in a worship service. None of these texts says that a woman was functioning as a bishop or a pastor or an elder of a local church. None of these texts says anything that would contradict or obscure the clear teaching of the Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 2 where he says: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet” (1 Timothy 2:12 ESV).
He said something similar to the church meeting in Corinth; a church that at one point at least may have been meeting in the house of Priscilla and Aquila:
As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. (1 Corinthians 14:33–34 ESV)Earlier in the same letter Paul had said that a woman could pray or prophesy in the corporate service (11:4-5); therefore, many scholars understand “keep silent” in chapter 14 to mean “stand down during the public teaching of the word” – an interpretation further strengthened by the immediate context which is dealing with order during public services.
Therefore, while it seems that Paul planted churches alongside gifted couples and while he recognized women as holding the office of deacon and while he had no objection to a husband and wife mentoring a young leader, he does not appear to anywhere endorse women pastors, preachers, elders or overseers.
The stories of these women should be told and enjoyed in the church without forcing them to participate in our twenty first century conflicts with respect to sexuality, gender and ministry.
SDG
Paul Carter
As in other discussions of this topic, the standard seems clear to me; women are not to hold leadership positions in churches, with authority over men. No women pastors, or deacons. I've seen this debated, as stated previously. An older fellow in a church I attended many years ago, while single, brought this up, during a business meeting when someone recommended a woman be included on a pastor search committee. He stated this was not Biblical, and after a bit of discussion, the woman was not included. Some folks had their feathers ruffled, as you can imagine, and our Singles' class decided to discuss this later, when we gathered for fellowship. After a lot of discussion, much searching though the Scriptures, and some prayer as well, we decided that fellow was correct. That position is, in fact, backed by the Bible. As the article just above shows, that doesn't mean women aren't ever to speak, and anyone taking that to such extremes is doing so in error, but women preachers? No. Women as deacons? No. Women helping? Yes. Women sharing their faith? Definitely! We have different roles.
One thing to remember is, God tells us marriage can be seen as a picture of Jesus and the Church. Does the Church take over the position of the Savior? No! Regardless of what some religious systems might claim, only Jesus saves, and no one in any church can take His authority from Him. Likewise, we women should not try to take the authority from the husband. In the church, we should not attempt to do something similar. We were created as helpers, a position that takes a lot of strength, a lot of patience, and a lot of love. We are weaker in many ways, but God still gave us as helpers, because men need us in that way. That isn't a "lesser" position, in any sort of demeaning sense. That's being created to be servants, as Jesus chose to be servant for all of us! What a wonderful role to be able to fill! Plus remember, the man is serving as well, in that position of leadership. A real leader serves the people. Too often, people seem to think that leadership means getting everything one wants, bossing others around, and reaping all of the rewards. Real leadership is about service, caring, loving. As a woman, I don't feel a need to compete with a man, to take his position, because I have my own, and appreciate that. No man can be a mother. Fathers cannot carry a child inside themselves, and know that bond. Fathers don't offer the same comfort that a mother can offer. Fathers are invaluable, and offer many things, and children need a father. However, fathers and mothers are not interchangeable. Why would we want to be?
Why do some women want to take over the leadership of a church, when we are told so plainly in God's Word that isn't what He wants from us? Why do so many allow themselves to believe a lie, that we cannot be important if we aren't the same as men? The lies that convince some they can/should be pastors have the same basis as those lies used to convince people that they can have same sex relationships, or change themselves to the opposite sex. Yes, the same basis. It's just a matter of degree, and not even much of that.
Well, I think that article speaks well for itself, and have shared what I believe on the issue. So, debate, discuss, and remember, God's Word should have the final say here.
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